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Stonehead's avatar

This is a good article, and it makes a lot of thought provoking points.

Ultimately, I disagree with the conclusion that all of existence is net negative however. Unless if I'm misunderstanding jargon, Net Negative means the same as Better Off Dead.

I think a lot of this comes from a typical mind fallacy, and disregarding the hedonistic treadmill.

Olympic athletes spend double-digit hours every day undergoing gruling physical training. They also compete in incredibly high-stress, zero-sum environments. This sounds miserable to me. And yet athletes generally prefer their own lifestyle to mine. If humans differ this much within the same species, imagine how different animals with completely different physiologies feel. I don't think wild animals don't _enjoy_ running from predators, but I think their experience is completely different than mine would be if I was suddenly transported to the wilderness 10,000 years ago.

There are a lot of other reasons I think this way. Animals in enclosures are materially much more safe and "successfully" and yet show many signs of mental distress. The hedonistic treadmill limits the impact of changes in material living conditions. The shortness of most net negative lives is cited as a negative, but it doesn't seem obvious that hundreds of hour-long negative lives is worse than one negative life that lasts hundreds of hours. Many humans go through intense suffering in order to continue living, and say after the fact that it was worth it. Animal suicide is incredibly rare, and possibly doesn't even exist in the wild.

I'm supportive of animal welfare, normally I wouldn't argue against things like this, but the consequences of viewing existence as net-negative are potentially very serious. I've seen legitimate arguments that habitat destruction is a benefit, because it kills animals (who were obviously suffering). People seriously advocate for nuking the Earth if we figure out how to leave it. These seem like catastrophic errors of reasoning, and so even though I agree with most animal welfare interventions, I can't get behind this argument.

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